Working out the Clinical Kinks in Venous Congestion: A Discussion w/Rory & Korbin. #FOAMed, #FOAMcc, #FOAMus

It’s really exciting to be at the outer frontier, trying to figure out some new clinical areas. Now these have all been described, however the ability of clinicians to properly identify certain pathophysiological findings has been limited prior to POCUS. Following the trail being blazed by Dr. Andre Denault, we are also working on expanding the applications, particularly in resuscitation/deresuscitation and CHF/AKI. There are more questions than answers, but that’s exactly why it’s interesting.

So for those unfamiliar with the topic here is a small intro:

And for those following, here is the discussion:

 

Do expect more from us about this. Watch this space. It is practice changing.

 

Additional resources:

Here’s a link to the article referenced during the recording: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29573604

Andre and I discussing venous congestion

…if you dig around the blog in the past year there are a bunch more!

 

do share your thoughts!

cheers

 

Philippe

 

The Right Stuff: A New Series on Nutrition. #FOAMed

So here is a little video intro to a new series of posts and discussions I’ll be putting up on the blog in the next weeks and months. And yes, it will tie in to acutely ill patients too…

 

 

So please do leave comments and invite yourself into this discussion.

Remember, you are what you eat. It’s true.

 

cheers

 

Philippe

H&R2018 Keynote Lecture: Re-Defining Sepsis by Lawrence Lynn. #FOAMed, #FOAMcc

Lawrence’s work on sepsis analysis is truly groundbreaking. To put this in perspective, one has to recognize that sepsis is an exceedingly heterogeneous disease that, once upon a time, and for good reasons, an arbitrary definition was formulated. This, however, does not reflect sepsis adequately, and needs to change with observational data, as this has tremendous implications in therapeutics research.

Lawrence’s efforts have resulted in data systems revealing a number of different patterns of sepsis, with clear differences in physiologic effects or responses. This may explain why so many failed therapies for sepsis have occurred. It is entirely plausible that some of these therapies may have effects in some of these phenotypes of sepsis but get lost in the statistical mix.

Love to answer any questions anyone may have, and Lawrence will certainly chime in on the discussion!

cheers

Philippe

 

 

 

Renovascular #POCUS: Technique with Korbin Haycock. #FOAMed, #FOAMcc, #FOAMus

Korbin Haycock, ER doc extraordinaire.

 

So a few months ago I got to talking with Korbin about POCUS, fluids and resuscitation, only to find out this guy is doing all sorts of awesome stuff in his ED in sunny California.  Got to meet him at H&R2018 and he had even more tricks up his sleeve he was telling me about. He will definitely be back for H&R2019 on the faculty side of things.

In the meantime, let’s review renovascular ultrasound with him:

And here is our discussion that took place at TheRounds Backstage during #HR2018.

Interesting stuff. It isn’t always so easy to get a nice renal view in ICU patients, but with some perseverance you often can. I’ve been toying with it and tying it in with the hepatic and portal flow patterns, but I have to admit I had sort of dismissed renal resistive index based on what I could find in the literature, that is until I got to chat with Korbin, who made me see there are some interesting avenues, especially the example he states on seeing it improve with vasopressin use in shock patients, which correlates with some of the data out there suggesting decreased need for RRT and better outputs with vasopressin on board.

I have a feeling there is relevance to this in acute care, and that the next couple of years will reveal some usefulness. The glitch had always been in not knowing what the baseline RRI is, and that it can be abnormal in chronic RF. There are, however, many patients who were perfectly well previously and where the assumption that their baseline is normal is probably safe.

Love to hear comments from anyone using this!

 

cheers

 

Philippe

Kylie & Korbin chime in to the Venous Congestion Issue. #FOAMed, #FOAMcc, #FOAMus

So I think much of the awesomeness of #FOAMed is sparking discussion and exchange, and the many little steps in clinical management besides the initial prescriptions. So I thought I would highlight and exploit a couple of really interesting reader comments:

So first, Kylie (@kyliebaker888):

Great to listen guys, thanks, and very timely. I had just read Tremblay’s paper after coming across a very pulsatile PV in a relatively well elderly patient with bad TR. Two questions – which PV are more likely pulsatile in the first place….Tremblay mentions RVF/TR and very thin folk. What is your experience?
Second Question – what did the GB wall/GB fossa look like after the initial very positive fluid balance? Does everyone blow out their GB wall with fluids, or only some?

It is always important to isolate the patients’ whose physiology may change the clinical signs (in this case PV pulsatility) and make their interpretation different. I agree that massive TR, especially chronic, would likely account for pulsatility. I am not certain about the physiology for the very thin patient, but I have heard the same thing from Andre.  So my personal take on a patient with severe TR and a pulsatile PV would be to look at the IVC variation, TR notwithstanding, if it is fixed and plethoric I would diurese – the organs don’t care what the cause of the congestion is.  

As for the GB, I have also seen edema, and then try to correlate with cholestatic enzyme changes that would be out of proportion to the hepatocellular enzymes if there is a primary GB process. This is certainly an imperfect science. In a critically ill septic patient, I have a low threshold to drain the GB if in doubt.

Then Korbin gives his two cents, and then some! 

Great case, loved it. Thoughtful management, brilliant!

I couldn’t help thinking as I listened, that it is so important to avoid over-resuscitation with fluids in the first place. We all know that the majority of crystalloids given will end up as interstitial edema, so any benefit from the increase in stroke volume is temporary at best (consider carefully what you gain and at what cost). Wet lungs=increased mortality, days on the vent, and ICU stays. Wet kidneys=AKI 2-3 days after initial resuscitation and potential RRT. Congested liver=gut edema and continuation of inflammatory cytokines/sepsis syndrome. Too much fluids–>BNP levels rise, high BNP levels in the presence of LPS=glycocalyx shedding, and more interstitial edema everywhere.

Cannot agree more.

I think there is some decent evidence that an early fluid liberal approach combined with a late fluid restrictive approach can potentially benefit a patient in septic shock, but its clear that an overall positive fluid balance does harm. Perhaps, even the early fluid liberal strategy (in sepsis specifically) should be tempered by a careful consideration of what is really going on.

My take here is that, by using POCUS, there is no need for a “general approach.” POCUS takes essentially no time. In about 5 seconds you can confirm a small IVC that can (initially) take fluid, a medium one (that you need to watch) or a full one (yes, it happens – that gets no fluid). So to me there is no need to have a pre-determined approach…

Sepsis is an entity characterized by venous return being limited by a decrease in mean systemic pressure (MSP) due to an increase in venous capacitance, rather than a decrease in fluids that generates the stressed volume (MSP=fluid filling/venous capacitance). The body compensates with an adrenergic response that maintains (or attempts to maintain) MAP by an increase in a catecholamine driven augmentation in cardiac output/contractility. This adrenergic response likely has more to do with the increase in lactate production observed in sepsis, rather than actual tissue hypo-perfusion and anaerobic metabolism mechanism. Increases in CVP inhibit venous return and congest the kidneys and GI tract (the left atrial pressures are the equivalent problem for the lungs, combined with the fact that pulmonary vascular permeability is increased in sepsis as well). Given this, I think in distributive shock, we should fix the lack of MSP by an earlier vasopressor therapy approach, both to supplement and decrease the crystalloid load to the patient, which is un-natural and contrary to their deranged septic physiology.

Agree.

Also, could the type of crystalloid given be important? NS gives a considerable sodium load compared to LR, and this likely promotes/sustains fluid retention that is difficult to remove during de-resuscitation. The high chloride levels of NS will promote an increase afferent arteriolar vasoconstriction and thus decrease GFR, making it more difficult to diuresis the patient later on, and contribute to AKI beyond the iatrogenic interstitial kidney edema caused by the crystalloids we gave.

Absolutely. NS is given by medical peeps only by cultural habit. Most do not know the pH (zero SID due to chloride) of  a solution they give by the buckets. RL is the best option I have available.

If you are involved in the early phase of resuscitation of a shocked patient, consider the downstream consequences of your fluid strategy that you give your patient that may give you a temporary comfort because they will look better in the short term.

Dr. Maitland and the FEAST study corroborates exactly this.

This is not to say that an aggressive and upfront resuscitation is not critical–it surely is. I’m saying resuscitate smarter, not wetter. Look for stop points for crystalloids–E/e’ ratios, consider PVPI, RV dilation/TAPSE, hepatic vein doppler, IVC dynamics, portal vein pulsatility, intra-renal venous Doppler patterns and renal resistive index. Fix the hemodynamics from an approach of the root of their problem, rather than pushing fluids for every hypotensive patient (whether you are taking care of them early, or late in the time frame of their illness). Fluids do have their place, but be careful and cognizant of their real down side. Look at your patient, think it through, and make the best actions for them.

Ok, now I don’t even get to have a punchline. Thanks Korbin!

So if this interests you, tune in to The Great Fluid Debate at H&R2018, and I look forward to meeting both Kylie and Korbin who will be in attendance and, I’m sure, putting us all on the spot!

And yes, there will be a POCUS workshop on portal and hepatic vein POCUS.

click here if you want to take part: H&R2018

cheers!

Philippe

 

POCUS & Venous Congestion – A Clinical Case Discussion with Rory Spiegel (@EMnerd_), #FOAMed, #FOAMus, #FOAMcc

Hi, so as a follow up to our earlier discussion, which can be found here, Rory and I discuss a recent case he had, which I think exemplifies well many of the clinical conundrums that are seen in fluid resuscitation, one being the general resistance of many to diurese patients who are still in shock on vasopressors, instead preferring to (hopefully) wait until shock resolution to de-resuscitate. But sometimes, it is exactly what they need, as some of this congestion may be, in fact, a cause of shock…

Here you go:

Love to hear opinions, so feel free to reach out.

 

For those who may be interested at learning some of these POCUS skills, check out H&R2018 (#Hres2018)!

 

cheers!

 

Philippe

H&R2018: Final Program! Only a few spots left!

Do you take care of sick patients?  If so, you’ll be liking these two days.

Jon-Emile Kenny, Rory Spiegel, Josh Farkas and Andre Denault in the same, small auditorium. It’s a treat.

So here is the schedule for both days, including the workshops, which at this point are almost filled. We’re quite excited as it has really come along well, and all the speakers are amped to teach and learn, which is the point of this whole thing.

 

Due to fire code, space is limited so register now! And honestly, the workshops are almost full, but if there is sufficient demand, we might add one or two, so don’t be shy. Someone even asked for a Neuro-POCUS workshop. A couple more inquiries and we’ll do it!

Download the brochure and registration form here: H&R2018 – Brochure-Participants

 

Thanks and see you in Montreal in April!

 

The Scientific & Organizing Committee