The Resus Tracks: Trans-Pulmonary Dilution Catheters in the ED…myth or reality? #FOAMed, #FOAMer

So anyone who knows Korbin (@khaycock2) realizes he is a true trailblazer in the ED, essentially doing cutting edge critical care from the get go in his shock patients. In my mind this should be the goal for any critically ill patients, that they get the highest level care right at entry and for however long they may be staying in the ED until they get to the ICU.

So today, I was really happy to corner Korbin lounging somewhere in sunny California (as 6 inches of snow come down hard in Montreal) to tell me how he is using this technology in his resus patients.

 

 

So this has got me interested in using this technology. I see it as an early warning signal that your patient may be less fluid tolerant than you may think, and that the signs of pulmonary fluid intolerance I use (oxygen requirement, appearance of B lines (FALLS Protocol-style), etc…) have yet to manifest.

So I’m looking forward to hearing Korbin explain this further (during H&R2020!) and in actual cases where the change in management is clear.

 

cheers

 

Philippe

 

 

 

 

#FOAMresus Case from Amand Thind (@Thind888)

So #MedTwitter is truly an incredible forum for case discussion, where you get to exchange with literally some of the best medical minds on the planet who often also happen to be front-line clinicians in the nitty-gritty therapeutic decision-making. Here’s a discussion which I think was great. Recently, Dr. Thind has been generating some great cases and hemodynamic discussions. I thought this one was worth highlighting!
Dr Thind is an internist and currently Critical Care Hospitalist (and upcoming ICU fellow) at the Cleveland Clinic, and tweets out some great #FOAM from @Thind888 on twitter.
Case:
OK, let’s give this a shot. Here’s a ‘hemodynamics special’. Saw this case a couple weeks ago. A lot of decision making was based on educated guesses so it should be a good one for discussion. – 51 yo woman being worked up on the floor for chronic diarrhea, moved to ICU for hypoxia.
Dyspnea progressed over few hours. Vitals significant for tachycardia (140s) and hypotension (MAP in low 60s). On arrival, SBP 60s – improved with fluid bolus. CXR attached. Patient has H/O of pericardial effusion for several months that has been managed conservatively. 
The patient has an official ECHO performed on arrival in ICU (images attached). IVC difficult to assess but about 2cm without collapse. Lung US – diffuse B lines. 
OK so right there a flag goes up for me. A plethoric IVC means something is wrong. Sounds too vague maybe, but you need to find the reason for this, as it likely has therapeutic implications. Let’s see what comes up.
Modifed A5C.
LVOT doppler

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CXR

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Pressing questions –
(i) Is it hydrostatic or increased permeability pulmonary edema?
(ii) Fluids, diuresis, or none?
(iii) Would CPAP help?
(iv) Drain the pericardial effusion?
(v) What about that LVOT doppler? 
Mitral inflow velocities and TDI attached. M-mode through PLAX almost uninterpretable. Lung infiltrates are new so less likely lymphangitic carninomatosis. Note: ScVo2 = 40s. Another Q to ponder on –
(vi) Is tamponade typically associated with hydrostatic pulmonary edema?

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Perhaps this slowed up (0.5x) A3C loop will help with that LVOT doppler!

Great discussion as expected. Lets discuss:
Q4. Is it tamponade? – This is not a slam dunk. Chamber collapse can sometimes be controversial. In these situations I try my best to get MV E-wave variation. I think our tech got a decent signal. But note these are fused E/A waves.
The first thing I look at to screen for tamponade is the IVC. Tamponade is an obstructive form of shock, dependant on the intrapericardial pressure exceeding the right atrial pressure. If it does, unless respiratory efforts are extreme, the IVC should become plethoric. Hence, the absence of such would make the effusion – given the current RA pressure – NOT tamponade. Yet again, another point scored by the IVC for usefulness.
Although I don’t see why we can’t use fused waves for this purpose (couldn’t find anything on it in the literature). Note that in spite of the cardiac motion, the mitral inflow variation is <25% (~23%). It’s close though, and certainly seems to have increased from 3 days ago.

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The cardiologist (understandably) was non-committal and read it as “possible early tamponade”.
Q5. What about LVOT doppler? A good M-mode could not be obtained but the A3C in 6/ shows SAM. The report mentioned “chordal SAM” but I think you can clearly see “valvular SAM” too.
Chordal SAM is SAM of the chordal apparatus (you could see it bumping against the septum in 6/). It is (typically) NOT hemodynamically significant (PMID: 27241937). – When we see mitral SAM, it is important to quantify its hemodynamic effects – with LVOT peak gradient via CW.
In HOCM, DLVOTO is defined by an LVOT gradient of >30; >50 is considered severe. Our patient had a gradient of ~70. Although classically a/w HCM, SAM can be seen in anyone with thick, hypercontractile, underfilled LV. Tachycardia further hampers LV filling (PMID: 27726435).
Mitral SAM is often a/w MR – this acute MR can cause flash pulmonary edema. These patients may actually need fluids (to help with SAM) to fix there hydrostatic pulmonary edema!! (PMID: 20661209). However, our patient only had trace MR (you could see it in 1-2 CD frames).
Working theory (similar to Lars) – Chronic stable pericardial effusion –> diarrhea (pt had 15 BMs the day before the admission) –> reduced venous return –> brought the patient at the verge of low-pressure tamponade (PMID: 16923755) –> further reduction in LV filling  —> reduced stroke volume –> adrenergic drive causing tachycardia and increased inotropy –> all factors culminating in mitral SAM and DLVOTO.
This also explains the low ScVO2. Note – CPAP would further reduce venous return (Q3) so wouldn’t help, may hurt.
Now the most important Qs: why pulmonary edema and what to do about it (Q1 and 2). As tamponade causes impedance to venous return, it is not typically associated with high LAP and hydrostatic pulmonary edema (Q6).
But first, let’s check out another CW tracing. Any thoughts?

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This is a CW beam through LV apex and mitral valve – typically performed to assess mitral inflow and MR velocities and is part of the standard ECHO exam. However, the tracing is not typical for MR (late peaking, dagger shape). Remember, CW does not have depth resolution.

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This is likely mid-cavitay/intra-ventricular obstruction. This is caused by complete mid-systolic obliteration of LV cavity (see PSAX) causing obstruction to the apical systolic flow. Again, seen in hypercontractile, underfilled, thick LV – e.g. sepsis (PMID: 26082197).
Finally – what does the ECHO tell us about LV filling pressures? – E/A ratio: As Lars pointed out, an E/A < 0.8 usually means normal LAP. However, the exception to this is sinus tach. This was shown in a study by none other than Dr. Nagueh (PMID: 9778330). (Also, see image)

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The idea is that when early filling (E) is incomplete due to short diastolic time, the LA remains “full” at the time of the atrial kick – causing higher A velocities. NB: In that paper, E/E’ > 10 had a specificity of 95% for elevated LAP in ST. In our case: E/E’ = 75/5 = 15!

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Potential contributors of high LAP – (i) SAM-associated MR – ‘trace’ in this ECHO but maybe we didn’t catch it. (ii) Tachycardia – E’ is 5 suggestive of delayed relaxation. Tachycardia causes “incomplete relaxation”. (iii) High afterload – high-grade dynamic obstructions.

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So at this point, it’s still contentious but I have my money on hydrostatic pulmonary edema. Will detail our interventions and the remaining course in a bit. …Sorry to make this long but I think it’s worth it!
Now for the home stretch, the remaining course: We realized pericardiocentesis may be required soon but wanted to see if volume helps with (i) Peri-tamponade (ii) Dynamic obstructions. It helped a little – O2 requirements went from 60% HF to 6L NC. BP okay but still tachy.
Day 2: We pushed 2.5 mg metop x2 with concurrent ECHO. LVOT gradient improved from 70s to ~10! (I did not compare mid-cavitary gradient, apologies). Started on 25 bid of PO metop later that night. HR now 90s Day 3: Official ECHO shows improved but persistent gradients.

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Evaluation of tamponade was similar to previous ECHO but E-wave velocity variation now 38% –> elective pericardiocentesis: 550 cc removed. Fluid was transudate We also tapped a small pleural effusion pocket: transudate, cx negative (again goes with hydrostatic pulmonary edema).

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Day 3 (contd): inc metop to 50 Q12H to blunt the gradients.
Day 4 – HR in 80s. ECHO shows no DLVOTO and non-significant mid-cavitary gradient. Oxygenation improved but still not normal. Why?! Check the E-velocity post-pericardiocentesis: it has jumped to 120 with E/A > 1.

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So why is the LAP still high despite no significant dynamic obstruction? – Patients with chronic pericardial effusion may have chronically impaired diastolic filling –> low output –> volume retention (basic CHF physiology). When pericardial restraint suddenly released ––> increased LV preload –> high LAP.
Originally discussed elegantly here: PMID 6877287.
This is especially true if the LV has some baseline dysfunction. Day 5 – We started diuresis! The obvious risk was to precipitate the dynamic obstructions –> metop increased to 50 Q8H.
Day 7: Excellent diuresis (~2-3L negative per day). Hemodynamics stable (SvCO2 normal). Resting HR 60s – 70s. Follow-up ECHO confirmed no dynamic obstructions (see image). Day 8: Finally on room air. Pulmonary infiltrates improved (image). All cx remained negative.

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Some dogmalysis offered by this case – – Fluids (probably) helped the pulmonary edema; CPAP/diuresis may have worsened. – IV metop contraindicated in hypotension? Not in this case – Sometimes you may have to diurese someone who recently had DLVOTO, as discussed above.
This case highlights the cognitive flexibility required to deal with hemodynamic puzzles. One thing I would’ve done different is be more aggressive with metop early on as it made a huge difference with DLVOTO. This was quite a ride. Hope you had fun. Feel free to share! 
Much kudos to the treating team, I think this was excellently managed. As Amand says, cognitive flexibility ias absolutely key in assessing hemodynamics, particularly in the grey zones when multiple processes occur and co-exist. Managing this type of case using a recipe-based approach and without POCUS could have let to a poor outcome. 
Now the POCUS used in this case is on another level. Very impressive and allowing incredible insight and certainly many potentially clinically useful Doppler analysis tips for LVOTO and LAP assessment. 
In the end, I think that there were three pathologies, (a) tamponade physiology, (b) dynamic LVOTO, exacerbated by (c) hypovolemia (diarrhea)  I might have approached this differently, had I seen a truly plethoric IVC. In such a case, one can easily see how tamponade physiology would contribute to LVOTO in two ways by creating intracardiac hypovolemia, hence worsening LVOTO both by decreasing LV preload and by the compensatory tachycardia. My first approach would probably have been to drain the pericardial effusion, and reassessing the hemodynamics afterwards, but correcting the intravascular deficit was necessary.
The other important thing this case re-emphasize is that tamponade is not a static diagnosis but a physiological spectrum. For the same given effusion (read intrapericardial pressure – IPP), it is the RA pressure that will determine whether overt tamponade develops. In this patient, it is very likely that a day earlier, there was no frank tamponade, but that after some diarrheal volume loss, the RAP dropped, and now IPP > RAP.  It is important to know this because if you have an effusion and a fairly full IVC, one needs to be very careful with anything that can drop the RAP, meaning diuretics and vasodilators, because these can easily turn pre-tamponade into overt shock.  And, as this case illustrates so well, you might even end up with LVOTO and pulmonary edema!  Which is one of the myriad reasons one should have a basic POCUS exam in every acutely ill patient. These are things a resucitationist needs to know and prepare for.
cheers and thanks again to Dr. Thind!
Philippe

The Andromeda-SHOCK trial with Korbin Haycock and the Nuclear Bomb Approach to Sepsis. #FOAMed, #FOAMer, #FOAMcc

So managed to pin another really bright guy down today and get his thoughts. Of course we digress some, but I think in all the topics that are truly important to sepsis resuscitation.

 

 

So I think all the resuscitationists I have spoken to tend to hover around the same common points:

  1. lactate is a marker of severity of insult/injury/inflammation but NOT something to specifically treat with an automatic fluid “chaser.”
  2. getting a global assessment of the patient’s perfusion – including things such as CRT is important.
  3. a strategy that seeks to exterminate fluid responsiveness is non-sensical and pathological.

The nice thing for our southern neighbours is that this study may give you a solid excuse to shake off that lactate mandate.

And I think that Korbin’s ending remarks are important, and it is something I try to teach residents, that there is little value in rapidly normalizing hemodynamic values – which treats the medical team very well – if there is an aftermath that is not beneficial for the patient. Kathryn Maitland’s FEAST study is the real groundbreaker for that concept. So probably a coordinated and careful ground assault is better than dropping the nuke.

 For more discussion on this trial check out Rory Spiegel’s breakdown at https://emcrit.org/emnerd/em-nerd-the-case-of-the-deceitful-lantern/ and our discussion at https://thinkingcriticalcare.com/2019/02/19/the-andromeda-shock-study-a-physiological-breakdown-with-rory-spiegel-emnerd-foamed-foamcc-foamer/

cheers!

 

a couple points:

First, much thanks to Scott Weingart whose technical pointers are improving my audio quality! Still a ways to go but on the path!

Second, if you’re not registered for H&R2019, there’s only about 20 spots left. And only a handful for the much-anticipated Resuscitative TEE course. Don’t miss out. If you enjoy these discussions, there will be plenty of that, especially in the protected meet-the-faculty times.

And finally, though he doesn’t yet have a blog, you can now follow Korbin on twitter @khaycock2!

 

Philippe

 

Is POCUS the new PAC??? A Chat with Jon-Emile Kenny (@heart_lung) #FOAMed, #FOAMcc

So here is what Jon tweeted a couple weeks ago:

Yikes! Does that spell doom for POCUS???

So clearly we had to get to the bottom of this statement…So a google hangout was in order.

 

Part 1 my intro:

and Part 2 our discussion:

 

So the bottom line is that we agree that there is a risk that POCUS may partly head the way of the PAC, or at least be challenged in a similar fashion. Hopefully the wiser physicians will see the inherently flawed logic that would push the field in that direction. Alternately, we could all get our minds and efforts together and try to do a triangulation of data to really pinpoint hemodynamics.

Love to hear comments!

For more of Jon’s physiology awesomeness, visit http://www.heart-lung.org.

Cheers

 

Philippe

 

 

PS for cutting-edge and bleeding edge discussions, including Jon-Emile and a lot more, don’t miss H&R2019 this may in Montreal…

The First Steps Towards Physiological Resuscitation: A Team Effort. #FOAMed, #FOAMcc

(original figure from this old post)

So Rory (@EMnerd) hit us last week with an interesting question that was brought up by David Gordon, a resus fellow working with him, and thought some of us may be willing to belabour his point. A lengthy and really fascinating exchange ensued, which I felt was worth sharing with the #FOAMed community:

 

Rory (Spiegel @EMnerd) find him on emcrit.org

Korbin Haycock (please leave comments to encourage him to get on Twitter)

Segun (Olusanya @iceman_ex) find him on LITFL.com and The Bottom Line

Me (@ThinkingCC) also thinkingcriticalcare.com

David Gordon

My editorial comments!

 

Rory: 

David brought up an interesting question today. Why not do a straight leg raise and use TAPSE to assess the likelihood the pt will be “volume responsive”?

My answer was the following:
“I don’t think the RV increases TAPSE in response to fluid and so the only way TAPSE would be able to assess fluid responsiveness would be if it decreased in response to a a SLR. My contention is this would be a late marker of fluid intolerance and others signs of venous congestion (portal/renal vein doppler) would be seen far earlier. “
In addition I brought up that “volume responsiveness” is a flawed surrogate and we should rather be focusing on volume tolerance.
And that is, in my opinion, the critical concept. 
Anyway David seemed less than satisfied with my answers so I figured I would open the discussion to you physiology nerds…
Korbin: 
That’s an interesting thought, you have brought up.  To clarify, are you asserting that an increase in TAPSE from a volume challenge or SLR could be a indicator of volume responsiveness?  If I missed your meaning, please correct me.
I think Rory is right in his assessment that TAPSE would likely be a more valuable indicator of fluid tolerance (or more importantly , intolerance), rather than fluid responsiveness.  TAPSE, however,  may be (I don’t know) a more sensitive indicator of fluid tolerance than things like IVC collapsibility index, etc.  This might make sense as a decreasing TAPSE (or TAPSV, too for that matter) in response to a fluid challenge might be an earlier indicator that the RV won’t do much with more fluids before it would manifest in things like a non-collapsing, plethoric IVC, decreasing S’/D’ wave ratio on HVD, portal vein pulsitivity, or pulsatile intrarenal venous Doppler.
One problem I’ve had for a long time with fluid responsiveness from the standpoint of the circulation up to the pulmonary valve (IVC collapsibility index being the most common example), is that it doesn’t measure what you really want to know, and that is LV fluid responsiveness.  There is a whole lot going on hemodynamically from when blood leaves the RV to where it finally contributes to LV preload.  I think if you want to know if the patient is fluid responsive, there are quite a few ways to assess this directly, rather than looking at the RV, IVC, etc.
I stopped chasing every bit of volume responsiveness a long time ago, however it does have its place in managing the sick patient, I think.  Usually, my first question is about volume tolerance/intolerance, before I start to think about volume responsiveness.
To investigate the fluid tolerance/intolerance status, I’ll look into a lot of things, usually using a lot of ECHO/US information.  My sonographic considerations are: LV contractility, diastolic function and ventricular compliance, LVEDP, valve pathology, SVR, B-lines (and if B-lines are present, put that into the context of what the LVEDP is because if the pressures are low, but the lungs are wet, pulmonary vascular permeability is high and I’ll think very hard before giving fluids), pulmonary artery pressures, PVR, interventricular septal shifts, RV contractility, IVC, HVD, portal vein, and renal Doppler.
(has anyone ever seen an ED doc do this anywhere??? Wow!!!)
Also, I’m lucky to have some other tools at my place like transpulmonary thermodilution catheters and pulse wave analysis devices to assess things as well.  Sometimes these things make serial assessments more convenient than dragging the US machine over multiple times, and can also give additional information, like EVLW, PVPI, etc.
(I think in the case of Korbin’s hospital, it may be important to bring downstairs care upstairs!)
Secondarily, if I think the patient is volume tolerant and then I have determined that they are volume responsive, and would benefit from volume administration, the next question I ask myself is what’s the best way to do this.
Clinical assessment combined with ECHO comes into play, as if the patient is genuinely volume depleted, volume repletion makes sense.  However, a lot of volume responsiveness is driven by syndromes of high CO and low SVR.  In these cases, I usually give very little volume and opt for a vasopressor to drive venous return instead.  This strategy tends to correct the CO/SVR derangement as well as take care of the volume responsiveness at the same time.  I feel much better if I know that my MAP is being generated by a balanced CO, SVR, and volume status rather than having a “normal” MAP.
I think that is a really, really important cognitive model. The common and traditional approach is to try to maximize CO with fluids and avoid the terrible vasopressors. In a disease where the primary derangement is vasodilatory, it doesn’t seem logical… However finding the right balance is difficult. And with the near-extinction of the PA catheter, we no longer have a low SVR value staring us in the face begging for some pressors.
Sorry to be so long winded, guys.  Hope I didn’t bore you with stuff I’m sure you already know.  These topics are really interesting to me though!  I’d be interested in all of your thoughts on the TAPSE question.
Segun:
I think the RV is more likely to dilate in response to Fluid than change TAPSE, as suggested by a paper or two on RVEDA changes as a predictor of Fluid responsiveness https://ccforum.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/cc3503
(RV dilatation May result in a reduction in TAPSE too?) 
Potentially, yes. SV may not decrease but TAPSE may.
The end result should be a change in stroke volume, so one could argue that rather than TAPSE you could just measure RVOT VTI in response to a passive leg raise. (I don’t really see the difference between M mode and PW doppler, and RVOT VTI is simple enough to measure from a PSAX or RV outflow view)
TAPSE is an Uber-simplified method of looking at RV contractilty rather than volume (overloaded RVs can have excellent TAPSE, for instance). I think it would answer a very different question.
Me:
Interesting question indeed. I can’t agree more with Rory and Korbin. Korbin’s clinical run-through is, as far as I’m concerned, completely on point and, if i weren’t so lazy, and had all the hardware he is fortunate to have, would consider as gold a standard as possible, until  mitochondrial monitoring and trans-capillary flow monitor technology is made.
I think it requires a bit of a paradigm shift away from volume responsiveness, that has been all the rage in the last decade or since the end of the swan age, and instead towards focusing on tolerance. There is significant and building evidence that congestion is end-organ damaging, and evidence that chasing maximal CO is mortality-causing (80’s and 90’s literature supranormal o2 delivery and all that), hence on both fronts focusing on congestion makes more sense.
I think we have to follow the fluid path (venous congestion y/n, rv ok y/n, lungs ok y/n and finally lv ok y/n) and then do a global almost holistic ‘is fluid the best option’ reflection including brain, gut, kidneys, peripheral tissues, etc, with Korbin’s nice little twist on balance of CO, SVR for the BP/perfusion. I don’t think there’s any point of care monitoring tool to unequivocally ascertain the best level of each today.
Rory:
So here is my question, should we be asking “Is this pt likely to benefit from fluids?” rather than “Is this pt likely to augment their CO with fluids?” 
Stop for a moment and think of most of your septic patients (not all, yes, some have cardiomyopathy, some are profoundly hypovolemic), are they actually in a low CO state?  The near-obsession with CO is probably rooted in the common belief that the elevated lactate stems from hypoperfusion, a myth which has been debunked.

Lets say we use Korbin’s gold standard I think we still have to ask what is the benefits of giving this pt fluids? There are many patients I see who would meet all the criteria outlined by Korbin in whom I still don’t administer fluids because whatever increase in cardiac output I get will be transient at best. I am inclined to sit tight allow my antibiotics to take effect and let the pt correct their own vasoplegia. After an initial small aliquot of fluid in the ED I like to see obvious signs of hypovolemia before I give additional boluses. I do like the CLASSIC trials criteria:

(1) Lactate of at least 4 mmol/L
(2) MAP below 50 mmHg in spite of the infusion of norepinephrine
(3) Mottling beyond the edge of the kneecap (mottling score greater than 2)

(4) Oliguria 

All this from the perspective of a decongested venous system and a under-filled heart on US
Korbin:
To Rory’s point, I agree that just because there is a lack of fluid intolerance and the presence of fluid responsiveness, it doesn’t necessarily mean fluids are indicated.
If I have a clinical story that supports a likely lack of hydration plus I’m looking at a high SVR, low CO, and a low SV, I will usually give some fluids.  Mottling, especially if pressors are on board, to me is a clue that some sort of volume might be indicated.
That’s actually quite interesting.  The pathophysiology of mottling isn’t clear (click here for an interesting read), but definitely a space to earmark, when trying to find the optimal balance between vasopressors and CO augmentation.
As far as the lactate goes, as everyone here knows, there’s a whole lot of reasons to have a hyperlactatemia.  It’s drives me a little crazy when I see a lactate come back elevated and the first thing someone wants to do is give fluids, especially if they haven’t considered any of the stuff we’ve been talking about.
I think if you have a patient with a high lactate, the first thing to do is ask yourself why they have a high lactate, rather than trying to correct the number.
Rory:
Agreed, most of the time in a septic pt I view a rising lactate as a sign I don’t have source control rather than a signal to give additional fluids.
Philippe:
So in terms of fine tuning, here is one thing I like to do with tissue saturation – SctO2 (cerebral)  and peripheral:   if it drops with vasopressors I favor augmenting CO (fluids if not too congested, inotropes to consider) if it rises or stays flat with pressors i stay the course. This is definitely not evidence-based, but to me, if tissue saturation decreases while increasing vasopressor dose, it seems logical that the perfusion is dropping, and not a course worth pursuing. I like to think of it as an example of MBE (medicine-based evidence) in the patient in which it is occurring.
David:
It seems to me the feeling is that we shouldn’t be chasing any single indicator of fluid status/tolerance/response/optimization evaluation and the key is to ask the clinical questions and pair that with our sonographic assessment.   RV functional assessment may have a role in that discussion, but TAPSE may not be the best indicator as RVOT VTI may be a better answer to the initial question.
The study that Segun sent out seems to indicate that LVEDA may be a better predictor of SVI.  The septal interdependence plays a larger role than I initially thought and perhaps using M mode to look at changes in septal motion gives you more information about the ability of the heart as a whole to manage the fluids…
That’s an excellent point, because even if the RV can handle the fluid, if the LV cannot, it’s gonna end up in the lungs.
Philippe, what kind of time course do you allow for your lactate to change, other than just response to your initial resuscitation?
Lactate should improve over hours. As Rory says, if a day later it’s still hovering above 4, and you don’t have impaired hepatic clearance, you might be missing something…
Korbin:
That’s something that certainly something to consider, Rory.   I think a lactate that is suddenly rising is most likely driven by a catecholamine surge driven by something going the wrong way.  But not always.
The important thing is to stop and think about what’s going on.
Case in point:  Last week I had a patient that had cardiac arrest due to an asthma exacerbation.  I had put a TEE probe down during he resuscitation, and a little bit afterward based on what I was seeing on the TEE, I felt she needed a pressor.  I used epinephrine because the beta-2 agonism might help with bronchodilation.  Everything hemodynamically look pretty good, except the lactate came up.  The ICU resident saw the lactate and ordered a liter of LR.  I called them and explained that the epinephrine was likely the cause of the lactate and it probably wasn’t anything to worry about.
Rory:
Just the other day I was called to the floor to assess a pt because the treating team was concerned he was septic when his lactate came back at 6.5. I walked in the rm as they were hanging the 30cc/kg fluid bolus. A brief assessment revealed he was in florid CHF. Once I convinced them to stop giving fluids and instead use an aggressively dose of diuretics he did just fine and cleared his lactate without issue.

In my mind lactate in and of itself uninterruptible. In a pt who is otherwise improving and the lactate is not clearing as fast as I would like I tend to just stop checking it. The one I find troublesome is in the post resus pt who doesn’t look great, I don’t have an obvious source, their pressor requirements are slowly rising and the lactate is hovering in the 4-5 range. That’s the pt that tends to do poorly if you don’t identify and establish source control

Korbin:
Agree with that Rory.
If I have those patient with a persistent lactate elevation, and they look like they could be malnourished, I’ll give them some thiamine, too.
Segun:
My two cents- there’s data soon to be released that compared echocardiographic dimensions (RV/LVEDA, IVC etc) to mean systemic pressure- showing no correlation with ANY echocardiographic parameters.
It would seem that going purely by dimensions, you cannot predict volume state on echo… so at the moment we can detect hypERvolaemia with lung, portal vein, and renal vein POCUS (and to a degree IVC), and profound hypOvolaemia by looking at doppler patterns (although the patient is more likely to tell you).
The other side of things, which has been clearly elucidated by everyone in this thread, is the concept of “permissive responsiveness”. Ruthlessly thrashing every heart to its maximum myocardial stretch doesn’t necessarily seem to be the best idea, to my mind.
I agree with everyone’s thoughts. Beyond the initial LLS/Shocked AF stage, you need a very good reason to give a fluid bolus!
And don’t get me started on lactate…
Korbin
I would only comment that the magic of Doppler probably is far more valuable than cardiac dimensions when dealing with hemodynamics.  Dimensions give anatomic values that can be extrapolated to hemodynamics, but PW and CW Doppler interrogation infers pressure differentials, which can directly be applied to things like flow and resistance.  Tissue Doppler has the added informative value of cardiac compliance, so that a comprehensive picture can be painted in light of filling pressures and the relationship to preloading.
When I look at all this together, I really feel that in most cases, a quite accurate picture of what’s going on is within grasp.
To emphasize again, something like B-lines with a compliant, low LVEDP LV, tells me valuable information about pulmonary vascular permeability.  Tread carefully about fluids here.
David:

How does the RV respond to a fluid bolus?

To answer this question first we must understand the role of the right heart in the circulatory system. Often the right ventricle (RV) is compared to the left ventricle, in reality it serves an entirely different function. The left ventricle generates the necessary pressures required to maintain systemic perfusion. The right ventricle’s job is to enable venous return, which is generated by the gradient between the mean systemic filling pressure and the right atrial pressure (RAP). The role of the RV is to maximize that gradient by keeping the RAP as low possible. 

With this in mind let us examine the RV’s response to a fluid bolus. As the RV becomes filled, conformational changes occur within the RV that allow it to increase its stroke volume without increasing the distending pressure.Under normal circumstances, the RV end diastolic distending pressure does not increase in response to fluid loading. Therefore, if the RV is functioning appropriately, RAP does not accurately reflect RV preload. But in pathological states, when the RV is hypertrophied, diseased, or overdistended there is an inverse relationship between RVEDV and RV stroke volume. Any fluid, or increased RV pressure beyond this point results in an increase in RAP, decreasing venous return.1

1. Pinsky MR. The right ventricle: interaction with the pulmonary circulation. Critical care (London, England). 2016;20:266.

So that was the discussion. I certainly thought it was very interesting. Following this, we decided we’d band together and try to hammer out what we think should be the optimal management of shock, trying to tie in physiology, the scant evidence that is out there about resuscitation, and the pitfalls of venous congestion. Finding the sweet spot in the balance between vasopressors, inotropes and fluids is a very real challenge that all resuscitationists face regularly, and it is very unlikely that, given the complexity of such a protocol, looking at tolerance, responsiveness and perfusion, that an RCT would be done anytime soon.

We’ll be sure to share when we come to a consensus, but certainly the broad strokes can be seen here, and I’d love to hear anyone’s take on this!

And of course, we’ll definitely be discussing this further with smarter people at H&R2019 – think Jon-Emile Kenny (@heart_lung), Andre Denault and Sheldon Magder!

Cheers

Philippe

H&R2019! Final Programme. Register Now! Montreal, May 22-24, 2019! #HR2019

This event is past. It was awesome. If you really wish you’d been there, you can catch most of it here!

And don’t miss H&R2020!

Click here to register!

Registration is open and we have said goodbye to the snail mail process. Fortunately, we are a lot more cutting edge in medicine than in non-medical technology.

We are really excited about this programme, and a lot of it comes from the energy and passion coming from the faculty, who are all really passionate about every topic we have come up with.

The hidden gem in this conference is the 4 x 40 minutes of meet the faculty time that is open to all. Personally I’ve always felt that I learn so much from the 5 minute discussions with these really awesome thinkers and innovators, so wanted to make it a priority that every participant should get to come up to someone and say ‘hey, I had this case, what would you have done?’   Don’t miss it!

CME Accreditation for 14 hours of Category 1.

This programme has benefitted from an unrestricted educational grant from the following sponsors (listed alphabetically):

Cook

Fisher-Paykel Healthcare

GE Healthcare

Maquet-Gettinge

Masimo

Medquest

MD Management

Medtronic

Novartis

Teleflex

 

The Accreditation is as follows:

 

Here is the Final Programme:

Final Programme

Wednesday May 22 – PreCongress course

  1. Full day Resuscitative TEE course

FOR DETAILS SEE HERE

 

    2. Full day Keynotable

    3. Half day Hospitalist POCUS (PM)

    4. Half day Critical Care Procedures (AM)

    5. Half day Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for MDs (AM)

for more details on these pre-conference courses please see here.

 

Main Conference Programme: H&R2019 Full Pamphlet

Social Events:

Thursday May 23rd Meet the Faculty cocktail! 1900 – Location TBA – BOOKMARK THIS PAGE!

 

Register here!

FOR ANY QUESTIONS CONTACT HOSPRESUSCONFERENCE@GMAIL.COM.

 

H&R2018: Final Program! Only a few spots left!

Do you take care of sick patients?  If so, you’ll be liking these two days.

Jon-Emile Kenny, Rory Spiegel, Josh Farkas and Andre Denault in the same, small auditorium. It’s a treat.

So here is the schedule for both days, including the workshops, which at this point are almost filled. We’re quite excited as it has really come along well, and all the speakers are amped to teach and learn, which is the point of this whole thing.

 

Due to fire code, space is limited so register now! And honestly, the workshops are almost full, but if there is sufficient demand, we might add one or two, so don’t be shy. Someone even asked for a Neuro-POCUS workshop. A couple more inquiries and we’ll do it!

Download the brochure and registration form here: H&R2018 – Brochure-Participants

 

Thanks and see you in Montreal in April!

 

The Scientific & Organizing Committee